Table Hockey World Championship 2005

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no title - ???, 8/2/2005 10:29
very exciting wc!

WFC 2005 - Cz. András, 6/17/2005 18:37

Hi all!

First of all, I couldn,t accept the nice and surprising invitation from the Latvian organizers to be part of the veterans tournament in WC 2005 RIGA, since I was occupied at the same time with the 5th Floorball World Ladies Championships in Singapore.

All problems like Bjarne Rytter writing about and ower also mentioned about things can be handled moore propearly if the ITHF had a President and a CB.

Outside fo this CB should you have a COMPETITIONS and RULE commette.

Inside this ITHF body you can prevent many problems in the future.

So, you need a functioneng and ELECTED Organization to prevent bigger problems in the future.

The CB can work out an " Organizations Manual " that all organizers must/should sign and follow. If you want to do real sport of TH ( and I,m convinced Totaly, that,s possible!) you must start an ITHF CB with President AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

It,s not good to organize so many World Champinships without a CB and President for the ITHF.

I bilieve it,s possible. with persons that are in the Executive committe.

Just do it!

Till the end I must congratulate Hans Österman, Sweden, for his new World Championships Titel.

Best regards: Cz.András

Music from Riga - Vladimír Kraus, 6/17/2005 15:26
For those who would like to hear again the game-music from Riga: www.trefik.cz/stiga/riga2005/music/track1.mp3 www.trefik.cz/stiga/riga2005/music/track2.mp3 www.trefik.cz/stiga/riga2005/music/track3.mp3 Well, I can say I hate that music. After sitting right in front of the very loud speakers for 2 days I was just when hearing it on Sunday midday...

Changing rules and schedules o - Bjarne Rytter Sorensen ®, 6/17/2005 10:58

Dear Vladimir and others

After the World Championships I need to voice my oppinion because what happened.

After the first day both Michael Toft and I was qualified to play in the D placement group. That meant that we were seeded around number 110-111 and 118-119 with the guys in the E group seeded under us. On Sunday this E Group was deleted and the players from there put into the D Group.

THAT SIMPLY ISN‘T GOOD ENOUGH

I do not think it is a good idea to change tournaments overnight.

1: Here in Denmark in my club Black Ravens we have played tounements with 3 to 5 players so IT can be done. It just means that the players play against each other more times.

That in fact was also what was printed on the webside prior to the World Championships.The changes meant that both Michael and I ended lower in the tournement than we had qualyfied for so we are extremely dissapointed with our final result. I for my part feel that we have been cheated, but I know I‘m not the only one who feels like that. It may sound as though i‘m dissapointed just because we got lower places than what we qaulified for but that‘s not the case. I‘m dissapointed because we all should be sure that we to stick strickly to the scheduled tournament planning no matter how many people doesn‘t come.

2: If we want our sport to be respected as such and to grow we simply have to stick to the rules printed and NOT change them like it was done in Riga. Changing rules has to be done at the general election or in the discussion board for delegated people and not by a single person.

3. Deleting the E Group also meant that instead of 19 matches in the D group you now had to play 27 matches which in turn meant that we were finishing around 12 o´clock in the evening instead of around 8 o´clock in the evening. That furthermore lead into chaos when someone just threw peoples belongings around to get room for the banquet afterwards

4:
About the rooms that was used it wasn‘t good either. There wasn‘t simply room enough between the tables so you stood there pushing to other people while playing, so my suggestion is to use more rooms in forthcomming tournaments so we get enough space between tables.

5. Around the voting I agree with those that voiced for one vote one country because as far as I can see being at the top at the table doesn‘t mean your views are better while the opposite isn‘t fair either.

6. To make sure everything is done proberly and professionally it is ITHF´s responsabillity but on top of that we must be able to discuss with each other with respect.

Bjarne R. Sorensen

Denmark

Re: Changing rules and schedul - Vladimir Kraus, 6/17/2005 11:03
Quoting the official WCh website: "Playing system is described for each category. These systems may be changed only if real number of participants will be dramatically different than number of registered players." This happened in Riga as there would played just half of players as it was first planned in group E. So the rule was known before the tournament.

no title - ???, 6/14/2005 16:28
?Mutti?

to Vlada Kraus - Sternats, 6/11/2005 18:59
Do you have statictics about the best attack and defence?

Re: to Vlada Kraus - Vlada Kraus, 6/14/2005 21:32
I‘m back at my computer after few days of holidays. The results pages are updated for all categories with best offence / defence stats.

Message to Hans - Mike, 6/10/2005 23:12
I cannot find an email address for you so I write here to let you know that I have raised your concerns as you mentioned them to me at the VooDoo Lounge in Riga on Sunday night and it is being discussed at the ITHF message board. If you would like to email me my address is macklc@rcn.com.

re: some afterthoughts - :-) Espen S, 6/10/2005 10:41

I have to disagree with you Trygve on a couple of points:
a) the schedule actually said that there would be placement matches in team competition, we the norwegian team can also blame ourselfes for not more actively seeking information
b) the breaks - I actually think that it is well done to host such a big event with so little breaks as happened. Regarding breaks in the long group play it was in my opinion absolutely necessary with such breaks because of the long way to the toilet.

Re: re: some afterthoughts - Peter Orum ®, 6/10/2005 11:48

Hi Espen & Trygve!

I think that both of you are right.

The team-competition is one of the places where the information had to be found actively, maybe the best thing to do would have been to publish it on the main screen and then number the "team-table-groups". But im sure that the ITHF-commitee will be aware of that when they‘re doing a WCh evaluation.

The breaks in between may be difficult to remove. Maybe it would be better to schedule them on the playing - then players could prepare their minds before the break is coming. Gathering all the results, picking up pucks from the floor and so on will probably be needed anyway. ( Some players might also need the toilet in between )

no title - ???, 6/10/2005 9:59
Mr. Bernstein is giving me the creeps. With almost no Stiga experience or skills or understanding of the sport, he has become our leader (?) and will now try to change the sport...

in response to ???: - Pierre Chastenais, 6/13/2005 0:19

But I do have to agree with some points: playing a full time game, instead of playing 2/3rds of the time, with the other 1/3rd running around for pucks, tapping the players down, illegally moving the goalkeeper from above the game... why is there a side rod for the goalie in the first place? And, mister ???, why don‘t you make yourself known like everyone else? It is a shame people like you hide under a stupid monicker.

Re: no title - Tim, 6/10/2005 10:27

No good comment!

So far he and the other 4 are only members of Executive Committee. Decisions are made by Delegates‘ Conference and there Steven‘s opinions only count for one vote. Another opinions which are good to have, BECAUSE they go another way.

P.S.: I want to say that DC should take part in the vote of the exact positions of the 5 members of EC - in accordance to the wishes and skills.

Re: Re: no title - Tim, 6/10/2005 14:21

sorry: in accordance to THEIR wishes and skills.

I don‘t think this silly racistic example of Madagaskar makes sence:

There is no really unexperienced group from any country which wants to change Table Hockey. The north american table hockey community has it‘s own experiences with playing. So we can hear their ideas and discuss about it.

I personally think we‘ll keep most of the existing rules with the good feeling of having prooved that they are reasonable.

Re: Re: no title - ???, 6/10/2005 11:22
If there suddenly from out of nowhere appeared 20 players from Madagaskar playing at a low level and with very strange ideas about how to play table hockey, how much should we have their opinions?

All opinions do count! - Peter Orum ®, 6/10/2005 11:41

Even when people from madagascar started playing tablehockey their opinion may be as good as any opinion. It is important in a democratic system that all people have the right to express themselves.

All members of the executive commitee were elected at the DC. That means that if anyone opposes the election they should talk to their national association and make their opinion heard there.

If anyone has a something important to contribute to the community then they can come forward (and should do it without being afraid someone would start attacking them!!!). The community can then by democratic means decide whether its a good or bad idea.

DEMOCRACY IS IMPORTANT

All the best,

Peter Orum

Chairman,
Danish Tablehockey Union - www.dbhu.tk

Re: All opinions do count! - ???, 6/10/2005 11:43
If the players from Madagascar fronted their opinions, get the thumbs down from all others, but still were insisting loudly on stupid things, how much should we then listen?

Re: Re: All opinions do count! - Hansjuerg, 6/10/2005 13:53
Excuse me! My grandfather is from Madagaskar, so please stop make funny jokes!

Some afterthoughts - Trygve Lie ®, 6/10/2005 9:55

Thanks to everyone who made Riga 2005 a fantastic experience. Some points I‘d like to raise however: (1) The lack of information. As Tim mentions below, the qualification for the 5th-place match in the team competition to me was the worst. The Norwegian team had all left to eat pizza and have a couple of well-deserved beers after losing to the Czechs in the quarter finals and it was only by sheer coincidence that we found out that we had to be back to play Germany. I ate an entire pizza and finished a beer in less than four minutes to make it back to the board. I found the communication and information procedures to be on the whole lacking and quite poor. (2) Lack of a canteen. I was happy with the availability of water and such but thought there outght to have been available sandwiches and suchlike as well. (3) Too many breaks. I know a lot of players found the frequency of five or ten-minute breaks to be frustrating, especially halfway through a group stage. Playing continously is important for a lot of players to be able to get into a rhythm. I thought it would have been better to have a longer break, if necessary, between the different group stages and not in the middle of them. (4) Peter and Petter not being called to the podium at the Sunday evening ceremony until Hans personally called them up put the arrangement to shame. That said, we all had a great time and enjoyed Riga, the World Cup and the international atmosphere - the training for Moscow 2007 has started already.

no title - Petter, 6/9/2005 22:57
Sorry, I only meant to post once...

The bronze issue... - Petter Bengtsson, 6/9/2005 22:56

OK, I´ll paste this once agin, hoping it will be easier to read... Well, I obviously need to explain a few things. First of all: Peter and me asked both Intars and Pierre about the possibility of sharing the bronze medal. And they both agreed to it, even though Intars was not very happy about it. Mr Blumenthal was not availiable at the time. Then, suddenly, Mr Bernstein starts to argue with us, saying that we are disrespectful and so on. We listened to him, but also made it clear that we did not agree with him. After this he continued to argue in a quite rude and unpleasent way. And some time after this we heard that Mr. Blumentals wanted us to play - and that he did not approve with our bronz solution. After some further discussion we decided to play after the final, but then, suddenly there weren‘t any games to play on. All things had been moved to give space for the final ceremony. The fact that Peter and I were willing to play for the bronze is worth considering before complaining and saying that we are not good sportsmen! There are also other aspects to think about. For starters, one should know that reaching a semifinal in WCh is, as Espen said, a life time achievement for a table hockey player. Therefor I think the bronze medalists really are something worth mentioning in a prize ceremony. Actually Mr Blumenthal apologized to me afterwards, admitting that he was wrong to ignore Peter and me in the beginning of the prize ceremony. So - no hard feelings there! But I also have to say that I´m not too impressed by Mr Bernstein‘s arguments. He has in fact very little experience from international tablehockey (two tournaments with, to be honest, quite bad results). But still he wants to change a lot of the established rules in a very stupid way (not allowing bankshots and so on). And, as if this was not enough, Bernstein obviously disrespects the best players (or perhaps all European players). As I understand it he has said that anyone could play like the semifinalists - if they just play in a slow way. How ignorant and arrogant! These opinions only prove how little he understands of this sport! In Europe we have been playing tablehockey (yes, STIGA, which is the only international game) since 1983. Espen and many other internationally experienced players could tell HIM how hard it is to become a really good player. It takes more than winning a local basement league. I have been playing since 1985, but I‘m still learning new tactical and technical aspects in this faboulus game. So, Bernstein - like the rest of us, you should be humble and try to learn, instead of trying to change a sport you know very little about. Finally, I want to send my warm regrads to Vlada and all others who made WCh in Riga a memorable tournament. Hopefully I´ll meet you all in Moscow 2007! /Petter Bengtsson

Re: The bronze issue... - When you are out, you are out!, 6/25/2005 18:11
When you are out, you are out!

Re: The bronze issue... - Intars, 6/15/2005 14:35

Petter Bengtsson wrote: "Peter and me asked both Intars and Pierre about the possibility of sharing the bronze medal. And they both agreed to it, even though Intars was not very happy about it."

Mr.Bengtsson you misunderstood me. I did not agree about sharing, I just explained (especially I addresses it to Mr.Ostlund) that in case you will not play the most probably Ostlund will be on 4th place as he is lower in round-rank.

That what you called "agreed" was my weakness to tie you both to TH and make you play for 3rd place.

Re: The bronze issue... - Roman, 6/10/2005 8:51

Dear Peter , Petter and all all all. J just woul like to add some things.

Before WCh I tryed to listen to all suggestions and coments about organising the WCh to make it real comfortable for all players and accordind to traditions. I have never heard from players or federations any small protest or suggestion not to play bronze match. It would be not a problem to make two kompletts of bronzw medals for open, or for all categories.

I offered both players to play just 1 game or eaven just overtime till 1 goal. Both refused to play for reason I can not be angry-like all we they just wanted to see the final from beginning till and. After final Peter or Petter suggested to play the much but it was to late-everybody was hungry and wanted eat.

So I decidet not to give the bronze medal on the ceremony before clearing the situation. But I also agree with Hans as champion-they both are grate players reaching the semi‘s and I was happy to invite them to podium and have all 4 best world players together.

Re: The bronze issue... - Mike, 6/10/2005 3:50

You played great Petter. I enjoyed when we spoke after your thrilling comeback on the Czech kid. I was so happy for you to win it that way. And semifinalist at a WCh is truly a lifetime achievement and is a result of your obvious dedication to becoming a great player.

Steve has been playing table hockey for over thrty years and has seen things done in different ways. he has been a chmapion a number of times and he knows what it takes, although not on Stiga, so it is difficult for him to believe there is only one way to do things. His first tournament was in the 1970‘s at the old Statler Hilton Hotel in New York City. Please understand that a different perspective sometimes is a good thing. I want you to understand what I am about to say. Steve was asked to offer his advice as to how handle this unfortunate situation. So he did. Sometimes he can say things i a better way just like all of us. Let me say that this in no way should take away from your achevement and I for one am proud of both you and Peter and I learned alot watching you both. I will only say ths one last time and that is that tournament organizers deserve to make such a rule as a bronze medal match and players should adhere to their wishes. I wish you guys had and none of this would have happened. Perhaps the good of this is that this rule will be clarified for good now. Petter, Steve is a good guy and has done so much for TH in North America and he has some good insights, although maybe that isn‘t obvious to you right now, I hope that this will all blow over. Enjoy your victories as much as I enjoyed wtaching them. You deserve it.

Re: Re: The bronze issue... - Hans, 6/10/2005 11:40

Hi all. I must give my total support for Peter‘s and Petter‘s decision to share the bronze medal. They are both from Sweden, they wanted to watch the final and they both felt that nobody would have anything to win in a bronze game. Maybe it would have been anotoher thing if Peter and Petter came from different countries. But now, with me and Roni playing a thrilling final, I totally understand their choise. We all should give them respect.

Re: Re: Re: The bronze issue.. - Hans, 6/10/2005 12:01

The other issue of this discussion, the Bernstein issue, feels much more important. I do buy the argument that we all sometimes need to see things in new perspectives. I also have the full respect for a man like Steve with three decades of experience from different table top games. But here is the thing: the Stiga table hockey has a long and deep tradition in Europe. All changes in rules and games have been introduced slowly and with care by people with love, skill and experience of the game. And now what happens? A distinguished Bostonian, without that experience, entres the scene and shows no respect what so ever for this tradition. "No bank shots, no coaching during games, no taping of the goalie from above, and absolutely no more than two seconds of puck possesion for each player". With proposals like that, pronounced in a very unhumble way, Steve is digging not only his own grave, but also the grave for ITHF. I can assure you two things. 1. If any swede would have come to USA with the same lack of respect and crazy proposals for the Benej game, he would have been thrown out under the Patriot act. 2. If Steve gets his ideas through I am not the only one quitting from this great sport. So Steve, let Lars Fridell‘s words from Riga be our beacon: "Maybe you rule the world, but we - we rule the table hockey".

The bronze issue... - Petter Bengtsson, 6/9/2005 22:47

The bronze issue - Petter Bengtsson, 6/9/2005 22:46

Well, I obviously need to explain a few things. First of all: Peter and me asked both Intars and Pierre about the possibility of sharing the bronze medal. And they both agreed to it, even though Intars was not very happy about it. Mr Blumenthal was not availiable at the time. Then, suddenly, Mr Bernstein starts to argue with us, saying that we are disrespectful and so on. We listened to him, but also made it clear that we did not agree with him. After this he continued to argue in a quite rude and unpleasent way. And some time after this we heard that Mr. Blumentals wanted us to play - and that he did not approve with our bronz solution. After some further discussion we decided to play after the final, but then, suddenly there weren‘t any games to play on. All things had been moved to give space for the final ceremony. The fact that Peter and I were willing to play for the bronze is worth considering before complaining and saying that we are not good sportsmen! There are also other aspects to think about. For starters, one should know that reaching a semifinal in WCh is, as Espen said, a life time achievement for a table hockey player. Therefor I think the bronze medalists really are something worth mentioning in a prize ceremony. Actually Mr Blumenthal apologized to me afterwards, admitting that he was wrong to ignore Peter and me in the beginning of the prize ceremony. So - no hard feelings there! But I also have to say that I´m not too impressed by Mr Bernstein‘s arguments. He has in fact very little experience from international tablehockey (two tournaments with, to be honest, quite bad results). But still he wants to change a lot of the established rules in a very stupid way (not allowing bankshots and so on). And, as if this was not enough, Bernstein obviously disrespects the best players (or perhaps all European players). As I understand it he has said that anyone could play like the semifinalists - if they just play in a slow way. How ignorant and arrogant! These opinions only prove how little he understands of this sport! In Europe we have been playing tablehockey (yes, STIGA, which is the only international game) since 1983. Espen and many other internationally experienced players could tell HIM how hard it is to become a really good player. It takes more than winning a local basement league. I have been playing since 1985, but I‘m still learning new tactical and technical aspects in this faboulus game. So, Bernstein - like the rest of us, you should be humble and try to learn, instead of trying to change a sport you know very little about. Finally, I want to send my warm regrads to Vlada and all others who made WCh in Riga a memorable tournament. Hopefully I´ll meet you all in Moscow 2007! /Petter Bengtsson

Rules in WcH - Tim, 6/9/2005 16:09

Thanks from Germany for both a wonderful weekend and tournament in Riga to the organisation team around Romans Blumentals!

Special thanks to Vladimir and Stanislav Kraus!! Especially Vladimir had to tolerate many questions while he did a stressful work.

Some of those questions were the result of one thing I want to critisise:

The mode of some things was not (or not well enough) published. Two examples: Mode of placement play-offs and the fact that there were plament matches for those nations which lost the quarter finals. We Germans asked just providently whether we were ready. (And we nearly “won” that match because the Norwegians allready were gone.)

At least what seems the logical answer to the discussion about the bonce medal match:

The organisers decided how to play the tournament. So Peter and Petter did a kind of insurgence. In future ITHF will be responsible for those questions. There will be rules so that those arumentations should belong to the past.

BUT as Magnus wrote before: We play a gentlemen’s sport with many unwritten rules! In Germany we think we should maintain this to a certain maybe the largest possible extent. Table hockey playing worked many years with easy precepts. And that’s what makes our game unique and adorable in sporting dimensions – or funky as we call it in Germany!

We think ITHF’s executive committee has ful power to decide about Peter’s and Petter’s rank. But the insurgence they did was a adorable and sportsmanlike one and they who decide about it should pay regard to that in respect for Table Hockey.

Kind regards from Germany, Tim

Vlada for president - Hans Osterman, 6/8/2005 23:39

Vlad: Your job is amazing. Organizing, publishing, always smiling, never yelling. You are the true soul of international table hockey and I hope you know how deeply we respect and appreciate the work you have done, this weekend and others. Keep it up or we all go down. By the way: I am really interested (of course) in videos from Riga. I think lots of people (Anton, Kenny and who else?) filmed the final and other play off games. Will you put them on the net? Or is it possible to get a copy? You find me on my mail: hans.osterman@aftonbladet.se

Re: Vlada for president - Vlada Kraus, 6/9/2005 0:04

Thank you very much, Hans. Although I know that some players could feel it in other way during the weekend. I had some crisis and no smile at my face and answering just "I do not know, sorry" to few questions when at the same time putting results into my computer and checking all those results written in an opposite way on small labels. I must again appreciate the help of Intars Zubeckis!

So I want to say sorry for those short answers. At the same time I have to say that I have enjoyed the WCh. Although I had to leave the building at the time of Open play-offs.

Well, for me it is now the time to think about playing at the next WCh in Moscow. After helping with 3 WChs, it could be a good idea to make some change

Re: Re: Vlada for president - Hans, 6/9/2005 0:14
You really should play next time, Vlada. Noone could be worth it more.

Pictures - Vladimír Kraus, 6/8/2005 22:13
You can find 191 pictures from the WCh at the Photos link at this webpage.

no title - ???, 6/8/2005 14:46
What happend to the Kyrgyz player?

Re: no title - Vladimír Kraus, 6/8/2005 14:51
He did not get a visa...

Missing results - Andreas Aman ®, 6/8/2005 13:43
Can someone check the results in the second semifinal in Veterans. Accrding to the results now Plesak is in the lead 3-2 against Agdur. If the played best of seven, there is one or two games missing in the results.

Re: Missing results - Hans Österman, 6/8/2005 14:23
Vladimir: I won the last game in the final by 2:1. Thank you everyone who let me win. The time of change was not in just yet. Ronis gold will come.

Re: Re: Missing results - Vladimír Kraus, 6/8/2005 14:53
Thanks for the result, Hans. I will update the result pages later today with some more pictures of players and pictures from the competition.

Re: Missing results - Vladimir Kraus, 6/8/2005 13:50
The games were played, of course I miss those results. At the same time I miss last results from Open final and semifinal. The results were not 1:0. I work on it.

Re: Re: Missing results - Andreas Aman ®, 6/8/2005 14:17
Ok, Then I know

no title - Rickard S, 6/6/2005 22:49
Great job. Hang in there!

Re: no title - Espen S, 6/7/2005 22:12
Yup. Thanks to Vladimir Kraus for an absolutely heroic effort with the results, both on the tournament and on web. It is highly appreciated not only by us that participated at the WC, but also by all other players in the different nations that were not able to go. Thanks!

Re: Re: no title - Arenlind, 6/8/2005 7:51
Also a big thanks to Intars Zubeckis for taking over the "results on internet"-thing when Vladimir had to leave.

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